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The Amsalu Podcast
Welcome to The Amsalu Podcast—a raw and authentic space where faith meets everyday conversation. Join Amsalu and a dynamic new co-host as they dive into the world of media, Christian perspectives, and Christ-centered insights. This podcast is all about genuine and unfiltered conversations—the meaningful, the mundane, and everything in between. As Amsalu and the co-host grow more comfortable in their space, you’ll experience conversations that invite you into deeper reflections and community. Tune in and be part of a journey that brings faith to the forefront of everyday life.
The Amsalu Podcast
Breaking the Mold
What if excellence is worship—and collaboration the way we get there? We take the meaning of Umsalu—“in His image”—and use it as a lens to reimagine Christian creativity in South Africa, from radio and labels to church stages and DIY studios. No bashing, no gatekeeping. Just a grounded, practical blueprint for a vibrant, youth-aware ecosystem built on integrity, craft, and community.
We start by mapping the current landscape: legacy gospel dominates TV and radio while hip‑hop, amapiano, and alternative expressions of faith thrive at the grassroots but rarely break into mainstream platforms. We talk candidly about why Christian radio often feels dated, how the old “Becky” persona shaped programming, and what it would take to serve a new generation without erasing the faithful audience that kept the lights on. Then we pivot to solutions—community-first radio that scouts local creatives, youth-led segments with real decision-making, and a pipeline from church halls to airplay, livestreams, and live rooms.
The heartbeat is collaboration and skill. We challenge the false trade-off between message and craft, and argue that authenticity and excellence amplify the message rather than dilute it. From producers and mix engineers to videographers and designers, we outline how cross-functional teams raise the bar, how fair contracts and clear splits protect artists, and why churches can become the most affordable, scalable venues and studios in the country. Think mini-tours across congregations, monthly showcases, three-month radio pilots, and cross-genre collabs that surprise the ear and honor the culture.
If you care about Christian music, SA radio, hip‑hop and amapiano in faith spaces, or the future of youth-driven creativity, this one’s for you. Follow a local artist, request them on your community station, and share this episode with a friend who can open a door. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: which barrier should we break together first?
I've never done good intros, so you know. Just jump into the conversation. I'm joking. Um but yeah, bro. Um the intro is really with you, Doug. Thank you, thank you for coming through and and and and starting this journey. Um the Um Salu podcast. I don't know if we've ever shared the name with you. Umsalu, yeah. No, so Am Salu means in his image.
unknown:In his image, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so the whole the whole idea behind the the the company and the name usually is based on reflecting God's image. So yeah, and and now as you you'll see as as we go into the conversation how so much of whatever we talk about um ends up being Umsalu, ends up being in his image. Yeah, and so yeah, bro, we're out here breaking the mold. Um this is the Umsalu podcast. Let me just uh start with the formalities. Our mission statement. Okay. The Umsalu podcast exists to inspire, equip, and elevate voices within the Christian creative industry. By exploring the world of film, music, arts, and poetry, we provide a platform where faith-driven creativity meets purpose. We aim to foster a community of believers, filmmakers, vloggers, editors, graphic designers, and creators from all fields who come together to make a lasting impact on our mission to oh yeah, make a lasting impact. Our mission is to empower the next generation to live boldly for Christ, reach the hearts of the youth, and collaborate across disciplines to create with integrity, passion, and an enduring love for Jesus that transforms communities. I should just like, you know, just break that up into like samples and then make it the intro for the rest of these episodes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, basically.
SPEAKER_00:You know, carry the message through creativity. Yeah, bro. It's it's it's the medium we currently exist in. It's the medium we currently uh do almost everything through, you know, um, be it be it food, uh, shopping, clothing, whatever it may be, the medium of media is there, and what better place to to be a part of than there. So yeah, bro, this is this is our intention is to is to is to really challenge thoughts, you know, dive into the challenges and potential of in um Christian entertainment, uh, especially in our local industry, South Africa, and um yeah, focusing on on questioning the current norms, envisioning more collaborative and di uh we kind of envisioning a more collaborative and dynamic environment um and future for Christian media. And so that's what we're here to talk about, breaking the mold. You know, um I think first first off, I don't want to come across, and and it's not obviously in my control how we come across, but as as as a disclaimer to start, is that not here, not here to to bash one or the other, yeah, you know, um of within my YouTube experience of of following artists, of following people, YouTubers, and all that, there's there's very a very critical bashing type of energy around whatever we do as Christians. Yeah. And and the the unfortunate thing, which is meant to be fortunate, is that the the bashing is coming from it's internal more than external.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, um, and so and so yeah, I've had to think, like, yo, what really more than more than criticizing whatever a Christian individual might try within the sphere of art, why not why not why not celebrate it as well as pray more for it, as well as as well as give it over to God and saying, God, I pray that you actually use this medium instead of saying like we we don't belong in this medium, we don't we shouldn't be around these things, we shouldn't be talking like this. We shouldn't what should we actually be doing then? Yeah um and and and let's focus in on that. So yeah, of the of the of the South African landscape, especially, bro, like yeah what have you seen? What can you what can you say makes up Christian entertainment for you? Um yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh in terms of like where do Christians uh express their creativity the most in in in South Africa using media, I think music, um so if you look if you think about your gospel music, so if you look at your uh joyous celebrations, I mean they always on TV, that's always in our faces. Those are the first like big groups that we've seen express you know Christianity through media. Um you're starting to see more um, you know, also like the traditional pastor delivering a sermon through obviously the TV first, televangelists, those sort of people, and now YouTube. Um, but I think you're starting to see more young people, um, but not not like on a on the big stage. Uh, we were talking earlier about the people we know in our in our circle of influence uh locally who are making Christian music. Um so I think from what I've seen, I've mostly seen people express themselves mostly through music, very seldomly through um, you know, like movies, that sort of stuff. But I think that's that's a resource limitation. Um but you're mostly through music.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, same actually. Um and I love film. So that's why that's why that's why I'll say say that, you know, as as as as a as a Christian, I'm um not necessarily just looking for content to entertain me. Yeah, but content to to as a platform to share, as a platform to also speak, um, speak out the creative ideas that I may have through these mediums. Yeah. Um but yeah, our local, our local homies, we see them making music and different music. Uh not so different to to society or the whatever's happening, but different from the norm of the music that gets pushed, especially in South Africa. Yeah um gospel being the biggest, one of the biggest genres in South Africa, you know. It's the biggest genre, and it has it has it has big support, but more older generation, yeah. Um and and very engaging too. I think there's nothing to rob from from that industry. It's it's it's booming, but what of the the rest of the sub-genres under it? Yeah, um, like a lot of the local homies we see, Kasper Cool, Konza, um we we pushing our own things. Uh we haven't got a name yet.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Between KG and our. But like our group. You know, but we we we diving into hip-hop, um, we're diving into piano, which whatever genre appeals to us.
SPEAKER_02:And and so I think what what you're touching on there is is probably why uh we haven't seen that go mainstream, is because if you look at like we just mentioned your choice, your big groups that are dominating the South African Girls, they've got a particular sound. Um, you've not seen anyone go big with hip-hop music, yeah. Uh I'm a piano and whatever else, the different genres. So I think it's still, and it's still fairly new to the ears of like your uh older listeners.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So you won't find it maybe, you know, like on the big platforms, but it is starting, like it's like at the grassroots level.
SPEAKER_00:It's at the flowering.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, at the flowering, like like like we were just talking now. We're pointing out people we know personally, not people who are far away from us, because even if they do exist, they don't yet given that platform where they may be uh to express themselves.
SPEAKER_00:True, true. I've I've also noticed in in house music, gospel's a big thing. Um artwork sounds, uh and also from the weirdest of people that you wouldn't expect it, just judging by their catalogue, you know, your your cubs uh or we'll drop some some gospel bangers, um Calvin Mo. Calvin? No, I just I just appreciate his production. I haven't really heard gospel per se. But there's all these genres that we're seeing, and and the thing about talking about the music end of it, it links us into radio and video. And that, like again, in the same order, your joyous will get will get the playtime, yeah, on things like that. And and we haven't even touched on on how much international music influences us, but in terms of in terms of why also the the flowering is taking its time is that is that our current trends in Christian music and and and radio, we'll be those guys, we'll be your joyous, we'll be your your oh Limwang or yeah. I remember ah dude the the the gospel crossover concerts.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah on years, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh what a blessing, Doug. Yeah, what a blessing, like seeing all those artists, or Benjamini and pair of names.
SPEAKER_02:So there's still that appreciation for that music, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, big time, you know, and and I don't think I don't think the idea is to be like, let's look at the minority group or or or the smaller group now, and and but to really say, yo, we want this. Yeah, we want this this space um to become more developed, you know, as individuals and and and all that stuff. And you know, like so the question some of the questions that come up is like, why is Christian radio not more youth-driven or diverse? You know, why why isn't why isn't it making a bigger splash? Um and how much Christian radio have you listened to, bro? Like, do you do you engage for being really honest?
SPEAKER_02:I think I only started last month, and then also by coincidence, my neighbor is an elderly woman. Uh she um is always blasting the radio.
SPEAKER_03:Shook.
SPEAKER_02:Uh so there's a radio station she listens to. Um But what? Equazi. Equese. So yeah, she's I mean, besides her, I never ever ever ever listened to Christian radio. Um obviously I knew it existed, but like never, it never even dawned on me. Um so the whole even concept of just listening and turning on the radio is just it's foreign. It's foreign to me, yeah. So I'd basically say I haven't really listened to Christian radio.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Given and given given the given the the resources we have, I mean, dude, I've got podcasts, if I'm looking for for topical conversations, yeah. I've got Spotify, Apple Music to listen to latest music or throwbacks. We we essentially create our own radio, yeah. And and and and through the resources we have, you know. Um I also don't, I won't lie. Uh like my homies on has a program on one of them, so that's that's the only time I listen.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, to support him.
SPEAKER_00:To support. Um, but through that, I think it it really it really um awakened that in me of like, yo, actually, what does Christian radio do?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um and and and where is it at? So there too, you see, you see this thing of of it's it's very dated as well.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um that's part of my qualms with with with the listening, is that I'm listening to stuff, you know, not not that it's bad that I'm listening to stuff my parents listen to, yeah, but I'm not captured by the program they'll put on, the music they'll put on. Yeah. Because it's just, it's it seems very nonchalant. It seems very, these are the people that have always listened to us, so I'm just playing everything that is thing, and I'm not really looking at the prospects of because by the time they get to things like how do I reach out to the youth, how do I reach out to them, then it becomes a problem because the whole time they're talking about how it's hard to reach the youth. It's hard to there. It's like, yeah, what have you tried?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I have you brought them to the table.
SPEAKER_00:You know, exactly. So hence the question, why is it not more youth-driven, youth-driven?
SPEAKER_02:What I can say on that, like talking about balancing things out, with like I said, it's an LD lady that listens to equasi, uh, that uh that uh that is my neighbor, I can see how it benefits her. I can even I can even appreciate uh the shows that they've put on there specifically for that age group. And I even benefit sometimes because you know I don't really have a choice but to hear it because she's blasting it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so I'm listening in and I'm listening to the different shows that they have presented there, and I'm realizing, oh, okay, there's there's there's room for this. Yeah. But I think to speak more to your point, um they there's this concept I was researching um before we had this meeting. So they apparently a few years ago, a couple years ago, when Christian, like the Christian music genre was drawing, yeah. Um they came up with this concept of Becky. Um what they would do is um at the radio stations, they would create this imaginative figure, Becky. And she would be a middle-aged woman with kids, maybe. Um, maybe she would go to church sometimes, maybe not. Maybe she was married, but her marriage wasn't, you know, what she thought it would be. So it's just this imaginative figure, um, like your target market. Yeah. It would be a specific individual, and then they would say, What shows do we think Becky would be interested in? So everything they curated and created was based around this individual who was supposedly between the ages of 25 and 40. Um, and I think maybe I'm not sure, I don't know what the they might have different names at different like radio stations, but they still have that mindset of that particular target market. Yeah, I think the issue is there hasn't been an integration of the new group of people, exactly the young people, and there hasn't been an intentional conversation of okay, we've got this new group between the ages of you know 15 and 28 or 30 or whatever. Um, what are they into? How can we reach them? Not based on what we think they need, but how can we like they did with the original Becky? What does she want? What is she interested in? How um how do we communicate with her? Yeah, uh, I don't think we've been that intentional with the younger generation.
SPEAKER_00:True, true. The times, even if if if you don't base it so much on generation, the times and how they've evolved. Yeah, yeah. Becky's not the same Becky from 20 years ago. Yeah, you know, um, Becky, there's there's a whole new uh like up uprising of of Becky within um the 20. The Becky's 25 and 40 doesn't look the same anymore. And and we need to be aware of that. We need to be, and I think I think I think the the the problem translates throughout just beyond the industry, goes into as well the church. Yeah, like how we some a lot of the churches are saying, how do we hook young people? How do we, you know, and it's like yo, who is um your young person and and and what are they experiencing right now? Yeah, because yes, nothing is new under the sun, but at the same time, see how it gets down to that point of nothing is new, in that in that as much as you might say, no, young people experience life in this way now, yeah. What does that actually mean? Yeah, that how can you relate? Um, and so and so yeah, I think you're right, bro. I think I think knowing your your Becky, knowing your young person, yeah, um will would help a whole lot in changing the dynamic.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um and reaching if and and a lot of Christian radio, well, especially in South Africa, is local. It's it's community-based, it's a community radio station. So, so who who is that person in your community that's making music that's that's kind of in that space? Yeah. And and how are you, what are you doing to promote them? You know, um, I think I think that would be very a very big game changer.
SPEAKER_02:So, so what do you mean, like changing the approach from echoing the what the masses want to rather using a radio station to echo the particular community they're reaching out to?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Okay, yeah. And if we're doing that nationwide, we can get to a point of um the exposure paying off uh in that in that now these artists have a place where they're known and they have a listenership, yeah, and we are promoting them in in such a positive way that we can start having things like lineups, yeah, concerts.
SPEAKER_02:So the radio stations, because they're echoing communities, they can become like places where we source out talent now.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Exactly. You know, um source out because that means interviews. Yeah, that means that means um good music to to to to to listen to.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um all these things start getting, start coming together or start revealing themselves. Because I'm pretty sure it's not like it's not like the the industry, the Christian industry is not aware of these things or in pursuit of these things. Yeah. But the problem is we've been pursuing it for 10 years with no breakthrough, um, no significant breakthrough. You know, um, I was saying, I was saying, I was saying this, I think I said it to you earlier that I was at a conference, a radio, radio-based conference, and I was like, first of all, I was like, there's so there's this many Christian radio outlets. Yeah, it's crazy. And yes, there are some moving in the direction of engaging the youth, engaging, like there's there's there's there's one radio, I think it's in Cape Town, a radio station that um has segments where the youth runs the station and things like that. Yeah, but the the strategies and things we're talking about about how do we do this, yeah, are very dated. And it's like as much as you might think I'm just coming with innovation, I'm I'm coming with with ministry here, um, I'm coming with with with bigger intention than thinking you're closed off to these places. The reason we closed off to these places is because we're not exercising them the right way. Yeah, you know. Um and so yeah, yeah, that's that's that's one of the challenges that that's we need to we need to to sit into. I think I think at some point I'd love to sit with someone from radio.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, a few people from radio to to start challenging, like, yo dog, what's what's really going on? Yeah, you know, um and then and then that also brings us to collaboration gap. You know, like there's a big collaboration gap, not just radio to artist factor as well, but artist to artist as well. Um of us who are are building up. Because I think I think also we don't notice how you know joyous celebration, if you can think of joy celebration, if we're using them as an example, you know, it almost feels like they popped out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But obviously, it's over the years they've built their their their their brand, their legacy. But how many are we ever seeing a Christian on a come up? Are we ever addressing that there's a Christian on a come up? Um and and and so the collaboration gap, I think, I think it starts there in that we don't treat this like a sport. I'm running with this train of thought. We don't treat it like a sport. A sport is competitive, yeah, and and you want to be the best within it.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and I think with with with Christianity, in these spaces, there's no compet competition. And I'm and and I think obviously it would be we'd need to define what competition looks like within our community, yeah, but we need it to happen because collaboration comes from there.
SPEAKER_05:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:You know, if I see if I see you've got you've got a great pen, you write like very well, I should be chasing you down, even with with with with everything out in the open of like, yo, dude, I want to make my my music better, but I would need to collaborate with you. I'd need your writing within it and everything like that to to make the music that will actually be impactful, yeah. That will actually be in the spaces I'm hoping for them to be. Um, not so much, and and I think we'll we'll we'll touch on this, but also that not not necessarily coming as an evangelist. Yeah, I'm coming as an artist.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and and as an artist, how do I develop my skill? I can't develop my skill in an environment where there's no competition either.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because they just take anything that I give.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's there's nothing to compare my artistry to. So there's no one to sharpen me who's on my list. Using that, going back to your sports analogy, like there's so many wonderful. Um, I was actually watching uh some of uh LeBron James's highlights.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I was watching an old highlights. Um, I think it was uh the Cleveland Cavaliers versus um Golden State, so um Curry. And you can see that there's like hectic competition, they respect each other, they even play together for the national team. Yeah, but there's that like I need to keep myself uh in top form because there's other people who are in their prime who could, you know, do better than me if I ever had to like take it lightly and take advantage of the fact that my name, you know, I've arrived, I've become, you know, a big artist. And I think sometimes that's a trap that can hit musicians, is those few that made it to the top can eventually be like, okay, it's a it's a name thing. Uh if they hear that so-and-so drop, they'll just eat it up. There's no longer um, there's many names here, and there's many names potentially coming up. If I'm not intentional about, you know, being unique in my creativity and putting out the best, you know, uh version of myself out there, um, the audience has options.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um I think that that's not there, and that could foster the collaboration that you're talking about. And collaboration, like you're saying, not just collaboration based on like um from artist to artist, like I appreciate the fact that your production is just on another level. Um I need to get my music onto that level. So can we partner um and you maybe produce my next album uh so that I can bring out a better version of myself? They do that in secular music.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Not because it's it's some it's some like we had to go in the back room, cut blood, shake hands, rituals, you know, like it's it's genuinely out of like, yo, dude, um, how can we bring out the best product?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um not not not for for consumerism, but really for the ear.
SPEAKER_02:They'll even like what's um wasn't black coffee sourced out from South Africa, particularly for uh uh an internet. No, no, not even not even black coffee. Recently there's that child, that girl, whose voice was um, I think it was used on one of uh I think Chris Brown's songs. Like from Inanda, I think. Yeah, I remember hearing that. Think about that. Like, that's a big artist. He doesn't necessarily need her, but he heard something and he was like, that'll help my artistry. Yeah, and he used that for his benefit, and I think that's what we're not seeing. Um, because that empowered because now she's an artist, like I think she's doing her own music, so yeah, he's empowered someone else. Uh, we're not seeing that in in I think uh Christian artistry, and I think it's a fear, that's my opinion. Uh, a fear that the industry is not big enough to accommodate everyone, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it trickles it, you know, you know, it trickles into how we do life as a believer. My life has church in it, it it's ingrained in church because I am part of the body. Yes. But you see, you see how that same thing within the church as well. It's it's it's an issue within the the denominations and things like that. Like with so much difference, we get to a place where where now we don't collaborate. Like I think of, I think of like, you know, I'm doing like a lot of the music I dabble into is hip-hop. And it's like, but I I can't imagine myself working with an alternative band in South Africa or a a Hillsong sounding type band that's in South Africa. But the problem is, is because I've got this denominational mentality and style of like lyricism and things like that. And it's like, no, even if it doesn't start out like that, yeah, the guitars I could get from them, yeah, you know, the the the the drumming I can get out of them, and vice versa, with me, the lyric I can give over, the the infusions I can suggest towards that genre, yeah, to the thus, because again in the secular play, in the secular playlist of things, you know, you're hearing all these mixes of music for the love of music before it is for for for the benefit of me and and this and this and this. And it's like, when do we actually get to that place, even even as musicians, how passionate are we? Yeah, because sometimes I think I think what happens um with us is that we we glitch in in that our our music becomes our ministry for us first, yeah. And it's like, dude, I get it, I get it. Yeah we want to have platforms to spread the message of God. Yeah, and it's not that you we aren't doing that by not being intentionally focused on that, but our focus on that um shifts our focus from our love for music. Yeah, and so our love for music should be able to be able to source from different places, you know. Um, that's how uh a few of our songs come up actually with KG, is that it started with us reading the music that's going to be sang on Sunday, yeah, and going to the studio and chopping that up into different versions and beats. And things like that, and then comes out this new infused sound of a classic song or a classic gospel song, Christian song, into into into a new kind of classic. That love for music, that passion for music needs to needs to be what we focus on.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I think I think to touch more on your point, I think I had this conversation with my mom or our mom, because we're brothers. Yeah, don't go. I was three hours. But love the Lord are being underappreciated. You know, and people can and they're not they're not considered worship leaders. And and people who um have beautiful voices, we automatically just put that title on them, like worship leader, because of the talent. And I was like, I don't think that's fair. And she was like, no, and she said to me, uh basically, just to summarize it, she basically said, Look, everyone is a worshiper. But the ministry of music, uh, especially on a public platform, should rather probably be given to someone who has that particular skill set. Just like the ministry of preaching would be given to someone who has that gift, gift of preaching. So I think if you put musicians in music, people who you said like have the love for music, um, those people have an ear for good music. They have an ear for whoa, that person's really good at what they did. The love for music overcomes their fear of I don't want you to upstage me. Yeah, um, and I think if we have more people like that, that that'll foster collaboration, that love. Like, I've never heard someone play drums like that. Like, I need that on my on my next album. Um, and just that appreciation and that love for music which you're talking about. And I think also with the whole thing of like prioritizing the message and feeling like we can compromise on the quality of music for the sake of the message. I I actually, as I'm growing, I'm starting to realize it's it's more a religious mindset than it is a reflection of Christ Himself. Uh, because David was a musician, um a very good musician, and he said play skillfully before the Lord, like skillfully, like he didn't say he didn't focus too much on the lyricism, and I think that what that was important. I mean, the psalms we stole learning from him today, and that was music, yeah. Um but he said play skillfully, and he even invested capital money into getting like skilled music, he's like, I need skilled musicians. Like he had a he had a love for music that drove him to even invest capital.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, dude, as the as the there's another thing is that is that the practical examples are there, you know, uh in the throughout the Bible, throughout the word, in that in that even even when the Bible talks on on the talents, you know, cultivate your talent. Um we mustn't forget that in our mission to get these things on the road, you know. And and you know, you know what I actually ran away from a lot was was calling the stuff within Christian music or Christian the Christian industry that I didn't kind of align with or see as entertaining and call it corny. Yeah, I don't think it's corny. I think it reflects a fear of creativity.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, um it it it it it it reflects it reflects this fear of like if if if what if the person catches the art more than the message? Yeah. And it's like we weren't I don't I don't think being bland is the formula to being impactful. Yeah um and and yes there has been especially if you do hip hop. Especially if you do hip-hop. You know, um I I think of it especially, especially because hip-hop, there's metaphors, there's there's there's there's all these different things in the art of how you you portray the message. You know, the message might not be so direct as in like, hey, you know, A, B, and C reference scripture here and this and this. I'll be talking in in riddles and rhymes and similes and metaphors to the point that you you might think I'm losing the message, but my love for music is tapping into the ear of the guy who's decoding my song because he he's just so interested in it. Where whereas whereas if I came through just like so sometimes sometimes we kill hip-hop, you know, we kill hip-hop in the sense of like no no no no, I need to rap out Psalms 23. You know, it's like you know, indeed, like like sometimes, sometimes, sometimes we call up it to puts us in a place where we lose we just we just compromise our authenticity, yeah, and God uses us individually through our authenticity, yeah. And and and we lose that within within the art sometimes. We we lose that in trying to fit, you know, 30, I mean 30 times my lyrics have to say Jesus. Yeah, you know it's like yo, dude, did this is not how if this is how you pray, uh let's talk about that too. But if the emphasis if you think the emphasis of your prayer is in how much you say Jesus, you misunderstood it. You know, you you you've missed the whole the whole the whole point of relationship with Jesus.
SPEAKER_02:That's a key word there. I think it's a reflection of a misunderstanding of the relationship.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. You know, so so I think I think I think the the the unpacking of it as well before before before I just dish out a few questions um with you is is in what we're saying, okay. We have we've identified the um how saturated in in in in certain aspects the gospel the Christian industry is, yeah, especially within music. But um we've also we've also not even but um we've identified the lack of collaboration, yeah. Um we've identified uh the the the communication overall.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, um if we were to paint a vision, and I think I think we've painted it multiple times in our heads over the times because of how passionate we are about music.
SPEAKER_02:Can I can I can I take a quick like two-minute break? I don't even edit that out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, no, let's take it actually, because uh let's do it. Okay, yeah. Back on just need to remember what I was saying.
SPEAKER_02:We're summarizing everything we've done, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So um painting, painting the vision, you know, like I think I think we've we've we've we've imagined it, we've seen it multiple times in our heads. Yeah like what would a what would a vibrant collaborative Christian industry look like? You know, um one that has music tours, multimedia collaborations, annual festivals, and meaningful art that resonates with the South African culture and faith. Yeah, you know, um yeah, yeah. What what would you think what would what what would you say our first step, first few steps would be in promoting this vision, yeah, yeah, and and and really giving more life to this vision.
SPEAKER_02:Look, I think the first step is this it's the dialogue, um, it's the conversations, but also conversations with the right people. I like what you said about inviting someone from radio, yeah um because even if you just start um with one radio station, I'm gonna use an example that has nothing to do with what we're talking about to try and promote this. So there's a lady in Choberg who started uh Spark School, she had a whole concept of education that was different from what the business or the environment of education was doing. A new school that she wanted to start, but a new way of teaching. So she wanted to like obviously figure out like what's my first step, and she thought her first step was to buy property, you know, get the equipment and everything she needs to like run the school. And she had a good team around her, and they said, Look, we'll give you money, but don't buy any equipment. Try out the concept. If you if like we'll get get an environment, get enough money to get an environment where you can try out the concept. And once you try out the concept and you see it runs well, market that success. And it'll grow. I think they've got multiple schools in South Africa, they're still growing. So I think the first step is dialogue that leads to an environment where we can try out this concept. Uh a radio station that'll have a balanced, you know, um offering for the for the for the listeners, or not even just a radio station, but even like podcasts, YouTube channels, whatever platform people absorb, you know, whatever they absorb from, where they can try out like the the the production team can sit down and and be like, okay, we hear your vision and we think that yeah it has potential. Let's try it out here. We'll give you a period of time, maybe I don't know, three months, and we can monitor how this is progressing. I think we need something like that. I think the first step though is dialogue, inviting people from radio stations onto your podcast. Um, also um having that vision written down or in a way that you can communicate it with them, like trying to sell them that vision. Like, hey, let's try this out. Um, because if you have success in one place, then you can market that success and be like, why are we not doing this?
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I think I think just running off your your your points as well, is is through through through the networking, yeah. Um I always see the what the the one of the biggest things I notice about the Christian industry market sphere platform is that there's so much potential.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um I think I think it's been on the on its back foot for a lot of the time and it's its growth takes that much longer, but in taking that much longer, we get to see how the in the the overall industry works and where they're trying to head or what their intentions are. But we have such a beautiful young market, yeah um that needs to that needs to grow up skill. So so in doing that, there's just plenty of opportunity, there's plenty of room to see something out of the ordinary. Like I think of, I think of, you know, when I think of music tours, for example, um, I know I know it's it's a little ahead of the steps, but realizing the fact that it within the conversations that uh with people, with radio, and with anyone, is that you know these tours, sometimes I look at tours and I'm like, yo, this guy was making this much money in tours, or he had to pay this much up front to get on tour, all these big artists. Is that yo, just look at the area we live in? Yeah, there's about 50, 60 churches in this small area, yeah, which I could say, when are your youth programs at? What are your Sundays? What events are you guys planning? What do you what can we host concerts here?
SPEAKER_02:We already have the equipment, the speakers. You have everything.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I can I can I can organize the artists. Surprisingly, I'll even bring you artists from your church that you don't that you you didn't know were artists. But in in trying it, I think, I think we have such a good infrastructure that we could build with with with doing that, with that, hey, you want to go on tour?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Churches all over the all over the country that we could we could we could we could look at. So I think the conversation extending it to churches as well, yeah, to say, hey, what if we had an an an initiative TZ that would would usher all of this in? Um I think I think I think photographers get involved in this. You know, you're thinking album covers, you're thinking album art, promotional content, um, and and and this is where I fit in. Well, I fit I think I fit in media or art as a whole, because of because of where my passions have taken me. Um, but that's what I think of. You want to you want to make a track? We're probably gonna need a music video, probably gonna need a thing. How can we usher all that? We have cameras to to shoot videos on Sunday. Yeah, we have cameras, and it's it's it's an inexpensive way to get these things done. It's still working within the ministry and how we've always worked, but now we we we actually are putting it in a place where this could get into the mainstream. Yeah, this has potential to get it into the mainstream. So I think there's there's big potential. So painting it from a place of okay, let's start the dialogue.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and and in starting the dialogue, I think there's also certain people who make up the steps, who who build the steps up. So like I would, I'd want to talk to, I'd want to reach out to producers. Yeah. I'd want to reach out to producers right now and saying, like, hey, I need your for projects. Yeah. Um, for for for for for for testing out standard. Test out where we are within the standard, where we need to be. Yeah. Um and and collaborate and and harbor that because and and not think about the the the financial aspect, the exposure aspect. Let's think about the foundation first. Yeah. You know, um, because we're building. We're building, yeah, you know, and and and upon building, if we can get the producers, the writers, and things like this, we can then have a provide a service, first of all. Like, hey, not everybody is gonna be a producer, writer, artist, and everything. So if you're an artist, come through. We have we have we have a a body of work that we'd like to do with you. And and all these portals are here. Spotify, all these portals are here for free. Not just not just here with this expense. Yes, there are expenses that come along in the long run, but let's just start throwing it out there. Yeah, you know, and and it it sounds it sounds harsh to say it like this, but you know, even if it starts with trashy tracks, yeah, but that's where it started. That's where the industry started. That's where the bigger Christian industry of music started.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Look at Christian rap, how it's evolved. You know, uh Lecrae's is one of my biggest examples, you know, from Jesus music to restored to church clothes for. The the the change over the years has been him like, hey, I really used to do this for the art, but had to focus on the word about it. But I did, and I took that time. So I allowed myself to go through periods of making my music where it really wasn't entertaining, but it had it had it had some golden nuggets of the message in there, to a point where it wasn't as many golden nuggets, but the production started changing up. Um the the the sound started aligning with what is going on in mainstream and so on and so forth. And but he he he has a catalogue, much like any other artist has a catalogue. It's not my favorite example, but J. Cole, I think he's had a trashed catalogue for a long time before he he got to a clean body of work, a clean thing. And and and I know I know it's always it's he's he's a very controversial artist to say because he's done, he's goated by so many people, but that's how I came not to like J. Cole. Is that I got to go through his catalogue and so I can talk about him in such a way of no no, I can I can acknowledge and and and and lift up his qualities, lift up his his journey, but I can tell you why I don't like him. Yeah, because I've followed his catalogue, and and this is what I can conclude. Let's have our artists get to that place, because that will also put you in that sporty place. Yeah, you'll get to know what you released bad enough, and you get to know what you released good enough, yeah. And and and and and and so on and so forth. So yeah, Doug, I think I think that's one of the first places, you know. Um, and would you say, would you say in doing that though, in in doing the dialogue and everything like that, where do we fit people like the youth in? Um where do we where do we prioritize uh that or when do we stop prioritizing that?
SPEAKER_02:I think uh with the youth, obviously you're looking for your creatives. You're looking for people who would not be empowered unless you were intentional uh with this movement. So you're not looking for everyone, but you're just looking for the creators, the musicians, the designers, the actors, the producers, the people who would otherwise not be given an opportunity unless they conformed to the current sound. So you you want an open dialogue with these producers that look, we're gonna be intentional about sourcing out the I think what we spoke about in the beginning, um, about maybe having ways of getting them out of their houses, getting them to like take their stuff out and now start to showcase it at like events, like hosting events. Like maybe they might be free events, they might not be getting paid for these events, but like coming up, for example, at a church, like a talent show, that sort of thing, where you could start to source out talents and then start to approach those people and be like, hey, I think that we can help you clean this up and make it something that you know you can bring out there. Now you've already spoken to the producers that I'm gonna be bringing people, and they might be different from what you guys normally do. Would you give them airtime? Would you give them a space to present themselves? So I think collaboration and networking with churches uh and groups, just groups that carry these young people, wherever they are, going to them, even university, there's so many of them in university, high school, yeah, um, workplaces, because some of them are in their late 20s, but they're still creatives. Um getting them to be like, hey, we're doing this thing. Um, if you have any contribution, uh come through, make it an open space for people. Maybe it would probably be like an online thing so that you can reach everyone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. And there are platforms that that such can happen that are already there.
SPEAKER_02:Bring them out and then give them because I think what discourages people is okay, but like, where's my art going to go? Like, there's a ceiling we hit every time. So if you can break through that ceiling through communicating with these producers and getting their support, then it's easy to be like, your music will be will be out there, your your artistry will be out there, whatever it is. Um, look, in the beginning, it's probably not going to be for profit, yeah, but we're building. You know what I'm saying? Like you're establishing it. Um you're trying to like get these gatekeepers at the top to open the gates and say, let everyone in fair chance.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. You know, I actually just as you're saying that, I was even thinking of like um starting record labels, you know, a lot uh across communities, um, starting, starting, starting such initiatives where when it's time to reap what we've sowed, it really is something that that is sustainable going forward. Because sometimes sometimes we look at it as like what's the ultimate sermon we could deliver, what's the ultimate body of work we could deliver, and it almost sounds like a once-off thing. Yeah, you know, um, and or it comes across and ends up being a once-off thing. Whereas it's like, yo, dude, if we establish all these little things, because that's how a lot of business and and work comes out, is that is that through the collaboration, we are harboring, um, I mean, through through all this collaboration, there's tons of record labels, there's tons of all these things, and they didn't establish it just because they had the money to, yeah, but they understood that yo, even if it be hip-hop as uh example, yeah, um, and and and seeing the roots of hip-hop, hip-hop came from from there was West Coast, there was East Coast, there was there was this, there was that, there was Atlanta South, and all these different sub-genres within the thing. Yeah, there was record labels to house that diversity. Yeah, um, uh, you know, more southern rappers going to this record label, more of this going to that record label, and and all of this. And what it ended up doing is creating a market, yeah. A whole market. And I think and I think we we need those things, you know. We we need those, we need those um people who are also going to be willing to head those things up.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, and I think those people, I don't know, I don't know. I think one of the big issues with artists that discourages them, and I think even myself when I think about uh maybe expressing my talent or art form is the manipulation I think that I've seen people who control these labels have over the artist and the and uh and the and the negative influence. Um where for example I was in a taxi, I was traveling somewhere, and I heard I saw on the radio, um and I was like, whoever this person is, they roll, they roll, like but you can hear that this is an artist, like this person has potential, like this could have been someone creative, and I was like in my heart, you know, I wish I had the funds to just buy them now. Yeah, buy them and and buy them and be like, this is a safe place for you to express yourself. All I'm going to do is I'm gonna take your artistry and make sure the quality is on a level that you know the masses can consume. But I'm not gonna shift your that raw ability. I can't buy that raw ability that you have. And I was like, I took the lyrics and I uh searched up to try to find out who she was. Um turns out it was Zahara. Dude, I didn't know her, I didn't even heard her, but I was like, it was Zahara and she's dead now, and yes, those other facts be like she's dead now, and but like it's so amazing. Like, I was like, There's something in this lady because Zahara, the sad thing about Zahara is she had great talent, but apparently she died without a lot of money, yeah, and yet someone made a lot of money from her success. So I think these people who start these record labels have to be people of integrity, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00:Because definitely, yeah. Dude, like I don't I hate people who do that. You know, like I'm just and I'm just saying it from the base emotion of like, you know, I hate I hate to see talent being exploited when if it wasn't exploited, you could do that much more if you just invested in it and you you helped it grow. Yeah, you know, um, and I think and and and and really, really that's that's a big point to raise up because you know, sometimes we think there's this there's this false sense of perfection in the mentality of Christianity that I that I notice a lot of the time, even in me especially, in that in that you know, if if I'm either I've got a bad habit or I've been doing something wrong, or whatever doesn't seem to align with the Christian culture, not necessarily the word, the culture, the culture then then then suppresses these kind of things that then they start happening and see it. It's always worse when it comes out on the Christian tabloids or the Christian community, or would see someone was being exploited like that, you know, it be because of how much you know, like, dude, if you if you function from a place of love, of God's love, yeah. First of all, that's such a beautiful place to source from because God's love harbors such a beautiful environment, such beautiful things within the environment that's that the growth, the growth points isn't, isn't, yo, I could mine all the gold out of this mine. Yeah, and then and then we move on to the next site. But it's it's this gold, you need one pebble, yeah. And really, really, you can keep the rest for whatever you wish to do with it. But we just need one pebble here that could that could make waves on waves on waves. Yeah. Um, and and you know, or or doing the whole and and this is this is one of the annoying things with collaboration with thing we've we've become we've become an industry that wants money, yeah. Yeah, you know, that's where the manipulation also falls in, you know, guy be calling you out, like, yo man, um could you come play at our church for you know, and they don't address prices or things like that, or things like that, yeah. And then there's just this danger now of what's the conversation at the end of this exchange gonna be. Yeah, um, and and and it it it it robs from everything we are intending to do, you know. Um I was reading recently quite a lot around how um there's all these things in the Bible, especially I've been reading Proverbs, so yeah, there's all these talks about success. Yeah, success isn't a thing you get by becoming a Christian, success isn't a thing you get by selling your soul. Yeah, it success, success, success comes with with commitment, obedience. Yeah, or the it has a logical list, a realistic list of things to do, yeah. You know, and and and so it's it we need to get back to that place where we can actually now not have motives or be so cautious of motives, yeah, but the the integrity behind it, the the the the the the the value we hold of this thing needs to drive us to a place of like, you know, you know, I already feel I've worshipped God.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:If I did it to my best of my abilities.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, whatever it is I'm doing. If it's, if it's, if it's some, if I'm editing a video for someone, if I did it to the best of my ability, I've worshipped. I didn't have to now like put a scripture or put some some sort of reference to kind of say, hey, I hope you see that this was done by a Christian. I hope you see that I love you and what we did.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know. And I think that that pushes out manipulation, exploiting each other. And also feeling like we need to pay each other for everything. You know, I get it. I think I think there's there needs to be a healthy standard there. But I think also in understanding a startup, like I had this glitch with one of one of the artists, and I I hope, I hope, I'm not gonna say his name now, but I hope to have him on an interview.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:To hash that beef out, you know, of like, dude, you're so far ahead in this music journey. Can you help me start mine?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, went beat around the bush, went all over the place, and it's like, dude, you should have just said no.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Or you should have just said, this is how I function.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I have my services. I would have been more receptive and more and more ready to do whatever, whatever I needed to do to get there. But right now, you you just went on this bougie, you you miss you misplaced where your value is supposed to be. Yeah. You know, as and and the thing is, the thing is, I I I have this second voice always. I think all of us have a second voice, the the voice that doesn't speak the most. Because, you know, Mahana, homie, you haven't even popped yet. Oh yeah, oh that voice, yeah. You know, you haven't even you haven't even gotten there yet, and you and you're trying to give me a hard time. I get what you're trying to establish, but like part of the part of that establishment will happen if you help me. Yeah, if you work with other people, you know, like I'm gonna help you. By the time you ask me for things, you want visuals from me, you want production from me, I'm like, yeah, I would love to do that to show you how this actually works by not charging you and all this and all this, but because you had that attitude and that manipulative kind of thing of thinking you're gonna be putting me on, or or vice versa, yeah, you've lost the whole point now. The whole exchange, everything will just trickle down and and be a mess, you know.
SPEAKER_02:But I think I think but I think that's a reflection of because most people do that sort of stuff because you find that that was his experience coming up, that there was hostility towards collaboration. So um that individual, it's weird because it's like you didn't like that hostility towards collaboration coming up, and then you reflect the same thing exactly when you're up there. Um, I also had a similar experience with I guess I would mention his name also until they show up. And uh they they they'd be making beats, uh, they've been going into the studio recording, and you know, I liked one of their beats that they made, and uh uh they had a couple verses there, but the whole project wasn't finished. And so I said to them, you know what, this is a very good project. Uh, I have history with this individual, they know me, they know my history of music. So I was like, you know what? I'd be willing to help you develop the rest of that song free of charge, and I don't even want recognition for it. Um, because I just I just like the sound. I was like, I want to finish the sound off. Um, and what I respected about the person, uh, although I was a bit annoyed, uh, they were very old, they're also very much like exclusive. Like, no, kind of just want to do this myself. Um, don't really want to involve other people, I just want to do it myself. And I was like, all that being closed off is not the wisest thing to do. Yeah. Um, but also I respected the fact that they're very open about it, I guess. Uh like, no.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Instead of, hey Doug, because homies be loving in movies sometimes. Um, you know, I think I think I love I love being on the behind the scenes of production because I get to say, I get to see like for me, watching a documentary now is no longer just yeah. Um we'll we'll we'll deal with that later. Yeah. Um, you watch a documentary about how I'm just right now the the Thank Me Later documentary came to mind of Drake back in the day that it shows like all this hard work on his own, and it's like, listen, I hate to burst your bubble, but that's also curated post. As much as everything was authentic in recording Drake and and all these, but the dire the director of the documentary portioned this up into things like that where it looks like he made a solo career, but he did it for the eye. The eye to be like, wow, this person did it on his own. A lot of that's why that's why a lot of a lot of motivation is fake in a sense, is that it's fake because you see a person making it on their own and they're saying just chase your dream, do whatever, whatever, whatever. Yet a whole team got together to make that statement true. Yeah, you know, and as much as as you know, we we we see those things, we need to understand how those things work, we need to understand how these industries work. Because sometimes you might think we're doing the the five steps to success by oh no, I heard, you know, someone who would who would like the example you're using earlier of LeBron and thing, someone would be like, no, LeBron used to train every day and this and this, he's got a nutritionist, a whole psych psychiatric person, so all this, all this a whole team bringing out this man, yeah, you know, and and and we do make that mistake of thinking, no, um I need to credit my work or this or this or the whatever the reason may be. Understand that collaboration is the key first and foremost. Yeah, collaboration has has you know, I think I think a lot of a lot of great artists also hardly pay for this the best of beats or the best of things, because what they've created is networking, like how how which you said like reflects a great artist to me, like how a yay will be in a room with someone and say, let me hop on your stuff. I don't I don't wanna I don't want no credit, I don't want nothing. But he's people are in rooms where where if you aren't part of that room and you're wanting to be, you'd be paying 40, 40, 50,000 for this beat or the session or anything like that. But because of the networking and the collaboration, some of these things are actually happening free of charge. Yeah, you know, and and we don't notice those things because we see we we'd rather focus on the beef and who's not getting paid where and all these things, and it's like wrong place to start. Yeah, it's a wrong mentality, you know. Um so yeah, Doug, I think there's there's there's a lot of norms to challenge within the industry, within music, more to dive into as well, around music. Um and I think I think this with this episode, it's it's really it was laying out the mind map, yeah. Um more than anything of like, hey, uh this is where we see certain pulses within our industry, within our community of believers. And it it it's it's it's reflecting how much needs to be done, pursued, as well as as well as realistically, this is doable. I think that's the one thing that frustrates me sometimes is like, dude, this is in a year we could release five albums, four short films, and and and and and this this many podcasts, but we're not valuing it enough to invest like that, you know. Um but I think to to also whoever's on the other end of this conversation, listening, watching, you know, um, what have they seen? What have you seen as as a listener or a viewer? What have you seen as as the Christian community, the whether it be music, whatever else within the media aspect, but like in music as well, you know? Are you listening to your your Maverick City, everything international, and you don't know what's going on down here, you know? Um, I'm I'm victim to that as well.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Where everything else is overseas and not here.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but how do you think we change that as the listener? How do you think, as a consumer of these things, how do you think we actually shift that, you know? Um, so I am also inviting that that that energy, you know. Um, it's one of the many sides among this to to look at, and we'll continue unpacking it, you know. Um, and we we I think I think we really are saying we are challenging your norms. Yeah. Um and not only by speaking about it, but there there's practical fruit that comes from conversation. You know, I think you said like in reimagining this conversations with these people, is that the practicalities for me, even right now, as we're talking, I'm thinking of the practicalities of giving life not just to this episode, but to moving forward with the vision. Yeah, you know, um pick up my little toolbox and and work where where in the little space I do have to work within, you know. Um I actually realized a lot of the questions when I was reading through them. We were addressing them as we we were thinking. Um but you know, you know, you know, you know, I almost almost didn't didn't thank you or honor you for coming through just because I felt it the collaboration felt co-hosted more than than guest to host. You know, yeah. Um and I think I think it it's testament of even how this conversation sparked up, bro, and and talking to about recording this, doing this at some point is is is my agreement or even proposal to it was out of seeing this passion within us.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and and obviously ours ours goes way back into into into just the love of music, the love of um the arts. I think I think we we have we have quite a quite a journey ahead of us, you know. Um praying, praying for for for boldness to carry it out, praying for wisdom to carry it out, and and God's spirit to work through through through everything that we do, bro. Um and and and speak about in in in in context of how do we want to see the impact of Jesus in our industry, yeah, in the industries that we are passionate about, you know.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, you got you got any any any any thoughts, closing remarks, shout-outs to who um yeah, thank you for having me, dude. Um really appreciate that. Um I think that we've we've opened the conversation. Yeah, uh, we've opened up the conversation. I think whoever's listening and whoever um feels like they've gained something from this, uh it's about uh a new thought pattern in their mind that hopefully leads to action. Um and I think for me, the final thing I'll say is um maybe I'll lay it out this way. Um there is a need to innovate the way music is, or not just music, but we're talking about music, I think so. Is delivered not just in this country but in the world, but obviously we have to focus on this country because this is where we live. Um not just because we want to see young people in control and older people out the way, um, but we're saying let everyone be brought to the table and let everyone um be recognized. And I think the way to do that is to get rid of the mindset, a religious mindset that says that um one particular way, one particular sound is the only sound that's recognized in heaven, and it's the only sound that can usher in, you know, the message of Christ. Um, I think it's to get rid of that religious mindset and come back to what you were saying earlier, that whole thing of relationship. Like when you flow from relationship, we don't know what sound David was making. You know what I mean? I think I think if we go, if we could go back there and hear the sound, we might, if if we didn't know it was coming from David, we might criticize it.
SPEAKER_00:Didn't sound like no joyous.
SPEAKER_02:You know what I'm saying? You know, if we saw some of those things those musicians were doing, the way they were presenting that sound, and if we saw some of the people that were coming to listen to them, we might have been shocked.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, most deaf.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, I think not everyone who, you know, gave praise to the God of Israel, you know, was listening to David. But some people came from far away to hear the sound that they'd never heard.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um this beautiful sound that they never heard. And some of them, you know, it wasn't the conversation or the message from the Torah that changed them. It was the sound that they heard. So I think for me, like music still needs to really be explored for what it really is, the tool that it is. And it can only happen if conversations like this happen where we open the door to what really is um creative expression and where have we limited it so that we can't, so that we've not been able to see its full potential.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Thanks.
SPEAKER_02:And as someone myself, like I love art, um, particularly music. Uh, I do want to obviously, before I leave this earth, at least one project at least, uh it's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00:Great minds think alike, sir.
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, it's gonna happen. And uh the way I want to do it, even is like it's different. Um that's another conversation, but I want to make sure that uh I leave something that I feel this was original, this came from me. Um and I I wasn't limited in my thinking when I created it.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, and I wasn't afraid that um oh no, this was not really sounding like hill songs, or it might not be you know anointed. You know what I'm saying? Like if someone listens to it, it's like oh it's a nice song, and then you know, it's time for worship, let's switch that off for now, you know. Yeah, yeah, that mindset tells me you don't really recognize what I'm doing as a form of worship.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And you miss the whole anointing, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You you missed the whole point. Yeah, even that whole thing of I only you know know God and I'm listening to this particular sound has more to do with your mindset than it has to do with anything else. Um, so I think when we start having these conversations, things like that start to become exposed, and hopefully people will lay them down. Like you said, not bashing anyone, but saying, let's have a conversation where we start to re-look at this entire thing and see how we can do it better.
SPEAKER_00:There's there's plenty of opportunity in restarting, refreshing, um and and cost adjustment, constantly checking like where am I at? How am I doing? Am I doing better or worse? And so on and so forth. But um yeah, Doug, so many conversations uh that could happen and are gonna happen ahead, you know, go looking ahead. And so yeah, to the to the to the listener, won't you join us in this prayer? Um yeah, Father, thank you so much for for your love. Thank you, thank you for community, uh, for brotherhood, thank you for for creativity, for music, thank you for everything, Lord, that that you are and are making have made us to be as well. We pray that Lord, in in in our conversation here, that you grow us, Lord, and and we pray that the the impact that these conversations will make is unmeasurable from us. So we we come with you, we come to you with without this big expectation or distorted expectation of like what it looks like to be behind the mic and and the results of being behind the mic. Um keep us humble, keep us, keep us full of love, you know. Um and we pray, we pray that those who hear this, oh Lord, will be will be challenged to engage their communities, to engage us on whatever platform they find us on, as well as as well as in in their role in the church, in the body. May it just be awakened, Lord. Um in the in the space of arts, may it be awakened, all forms of creativity, you know. Um and we pray not to not to stereotype it. We pray we pray that this this this episode, these episodes coming up break stereotypes, they break um false teachings, they break all these weird ideas around what you have instilled in us, oh God. You instilled creativity in us, you instilled love and passion. And so we pray that it reflects through these episodes. We pray that it it not only just reflects, oh God, but it it just a domino effect across churches, across communities, industries. We we thank you, we honor you, God, we bless you for this time in Jesus' name. Amen. Oh I was dope, Doug. That was dope. Let me conversation now.